RAW Feeding or aka BARF

[lmcpug]

Posted by rosiepug on: Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:58 am    
Tonights dinner Menu is either

'Rable de Lievre' Saddle of Hare, back with spine and ribs included or  

'Collier de Mouton' Scrag end of neck as me old Mum would call it!!!  

Is their any problem with cutting these up into chunk size pieces rather than letting them tear it apart.

Lili is very challenged when eating as she was born with few teeth and has a congenial abnormality. Her tongue grew like Pinocchios nose, longer and longer.  It's just too big and too long to fit in her mouth!Chewing is getting exceedingly more difficult for her. She has at least two inches of it hanging from her mouth and with food in there along with that tongue, she has problems what ever she eats!!  I was going to hand feed her nuggets of meaty bone, I don't know if she can chew the bone or she may just swallow it. Is that a problem if they are indeed, cut up small enough for her to swallow, with out choking??  
Of course I'm going to be sitting next to her, just like I am for every meal!!
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Posted by PugPillow on: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:16 pm    
Yes, cutting them up that small could be a problem if she swallows them whole. Better you let her try and chew them. You might be surprised at how well she does. Mei-Ling may have the longest tongue in North America and has pretty bad teeth too but manages quite well, although it takes her about 3 times as long or more than the others to get through the same amount of food. We just wait. You may have to hold on to the other end of her food until she gets the hang of it so break out the latex gloves! Good luck. The menu sounds fabu!
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 Posted by rosiepug on: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:40 am    
She ended up, just sucking the meat off the bone hahaha
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Posted by rosiepug on: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:02 am    
This evenings repas will be 'Daube de Boeuf' !!

No bone which I'm terrified of  

What I've noticed in Rosie after 5 meals is that she doesn't have that stink any more. I couldn't understand why she had bad breath. She's had it since a puppy. It couldn't have had been caused by bad teeth. Also her skin seems to be more supple. I don't know if it's anything to do with the Raw too soon to tell. She only poops a quarter of what she was doing.

Lili is more challenging. I had to wash her ears and front legs lastnight as she smelled of Raw meat. 'Chewing' meat and bone makes her 'cry', teardrops stream from her eyes as she eats. I think it has something with her facial composition. She has big eyes right on top of her jaws and something must compress when she eats.
I'm not convinced it will be right for her but time will tell.
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Posted by pugpillow on: Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:39 pm    
Mei-Ling's bad breath could peel paper off the walls. But not since raw. I forgot to mention that!

[lmcpug]

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:04 pm    
 

Rosie, I love your pluck!   Makes me laugh to see how much you want to do what's best and the problems you encounter. I know I shouldn't laugh, but I can't help it ... First Lilli with her snood and now deboning chicken. Aaahhhh.

From what I've read on the other rawfeeding forums, everyone has a problem at first with trying to do everything perfectly and EVERYONE worries about the bones and balance. If you keep with it, you'll relax with it and even enjoy it. Just keep an eye on them while they're eating bones until you get comfortable; even now I check in on their "dining" once in a while at each boney meal.

My feeding regime is getting easier and easier as I move (slowly and painfully) towards more of a prey model approach (as compared with the BARF). I haven't posted about it yet as I'm still not converted over, so I'm experiencing some of the same insecurities as lots of other folks. But I do tend more these days to just throw down hunks of meat, fish and RMBs for them outside on the deck, or behind the babygate on the washable tile, and let them go at it. I also feed fewer supplements now (mostly just Salmon & Wild Fish Oil) because they are getting a fairly wide selection of food sources.

As for free-range , these chickens get more exercise (the others are crowded into big pens, but that's another animal rights story!) and so their weight-bearing bones are stronger. So when some people say they don't feed chicken leg/thigh bone, that's where any danger lies. Other than that, chicken bones are wonderful. My particular favourite is chicken backs. However, do be sure to give proportionally lots of meat too. I started out giving too much bone in relation to meat . You can tell by the VERY hard and/or white stools.

Another common worry is pork trichanosis and bacteria in meat/fish. In Canada and the US, there is no longer any risk of trichinosis in human grade pork and so no need to freeze. Probably the same for other meats, too, although I'm not 100% sure. Personally, with all the beef scares we've had, I still freeze for 48-72 hours first. This is particularly true with ground meat as there is more surface area for bacterial contamination. I don't know about Europe. When in doubt, I freeze first. And even if there is some bacteria, the acidity in the stomach of a HEALTHY raw eating dog will deals with it effectively, just as their immune systems handle the bacteria when they lick their privates (sorry to be so graphic).

Some raw feeders argue against ground meat as they say it doesn't give their dogs the chance to exercise their jaws. I'm not sure we have to worry about this with pugs! They also don't like prepackage ground because of not knowing what, if anything, has been added to it. If the butcher is grinding for you, or you are grinding your own, no worries. I'm a little less paranoid about bought ground meat and do use it for breakfast, but concentrate on whole meat or raw meaty bones for supper - usually just flung outside for them. They learn to use their paws to hold the piece and then rip at it with their teeth, just like wild dogs. If they are used to kibble or cut-up food, you may have to teach them by holding one end of the piece/bone.

Ox tails are fine!
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 Posted by rosiepug on: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:37 pm    
Hilary, Thanks for that but I can tell you I'm going to need a whole lot more of reassurance as we walk through this.
I'm generally one of those people that NEVER needs my hand holding but this really makes me nervous.
I freaked when I had all this sharp bone this evening, even though they were about 1cm pieces. I think I'll try rabbit or something tomorrow to get my nerves under control!
I don't know what to expect.....fear of the unknown  

What time do you all feed the evening meal. Is she going to process it faster and need to go poop earlier than normal?? Not that she'll care! She got up out of her bed at 2.30am this morning, waddled down to the foot of my bed(on the floor folks not in my bed) and downloaded  Then she waddled back to her bed!!  Which meant I had to get up to clean-up after her  

I'll look forward to more adventures in raw feeding. Shall we call it the "Perils of Paree?"

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Posted by pugpillow on: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:09 pm    
 

Just another adventure, eh? Her mid-night eposide was probably just because her body wasn't used to the change.

I feed mine between 4:30 p.m and 6:00. They're usually nagging me for it just after 4 p.m. but the earliest I will cave in to is 4:30. There are fewer and smaller poopers on raw. They usually only go once (at most twice) a day - Magoo before breakfast, Kimmy around 2 p.m., Denver at night and Mei-Ling, well, whenever and wherever she happens to go, but that's another issue. So they all seem to process the food at different times/rates. I let them out just before bed so they have a chance to go if they need to. This can be anywhere between 10 p.m and 2 a.m.

I don't often get woken in the middle of the night to let them out, but coincidentally, Gooey got me up at 2:30 this morning, so they all went out.
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Posted by Candace on: Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:29 am    
I agree with Hilary. Raw diet is great. Salvador has bad allergies and it made a huge difference in his health. He has been on raw since he was about two, so that's 5 1/2 years. I started with a complete packaged meal. That got expensive, once Mookie came along and I started fostering. Now I buy the meat and prepare the rest.
After awhile, Salvador couldn't handle the pre-packaged raw diet. I had to start with the meat and add the other ingredients one at a time, to ensure he wasn't sensitive. All my guys eat it raw, but Salvador has to do without certain veggies and eggs.
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 Posted by lorraine on: Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:00 pm    
so I am starting my gang on the raw diet as of today! I bought the premixed stuff and they suggested I start with the chicken. They loved it!!! The guy at the store suggested maybe feeding them 3 times a day for a couple days to give their stomach time to adjust and then I can go back to twice a day. I am very excited about this and would like to thank you all very much!
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Posted by pugpillow on: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:10 am    
That's great! Good luck. Don't be worried if one or more have the throw-ups for a day or two. That would be the change to their stomach. Just let them eat it back up and carry on. If they continue to throw up, then there's something in it they can't tolerate. For example, Mei-Ling throws up when she gets lamb. So I don't give it to her any more (unless I forget to defrost something different).
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[lmcpug]

posted by pugpillow on: Wed May 21, 2008 4:29 pm
If you have a grocery store, you have the most important ingredients. If you also have a health food store, you can get the rest. Here is a typical week for my gang. Note that this should not be fed to puppies or pregnant bit&hes who have different nutritional needs.

Breakfast:
Days 1 to 7: breakfast slop

Dinner:
Day 1 - cubed raw pork (equivalent of 1 pork chop) - I buy large roasts on sale because I have so many dogs, but you could do the same and freeze in individual portions

Day 2 - cubed raw beef roast (see Day 1)

Day 3 - one raw large chicken leg with thigh, complete with bones. DO NOT COOK. Watch carefully while chewing the bones

Day 4 - cubed meat from a turkey leg or breast, or the turkey leg with half the meat removed and saved for another time

Day 5 - defrosted frozen sardines including head and bones; I cut off the tail if it is too large/sharp OR 1/3 to 1/2 can of jack mackerel in brine, well-rinsed. Amount should be about the size of a woman's fist

Day 6 - a fistful of ground lamb

Day 7 - a mixture of scrambled egg and green tripe - about half and half, totallying a large fistful

On Days 6 and 7, instead of lamb (expensive) and green tripe (harder to source), you can repeat any of the non-fish previous days. You could also substitute with venison or bison or rabbit. The key is to have as wide a variety as possible but if you can only get pork, beef and chicken, that's okay.

If you can't get ground chicken bones as the basis of the Breakfast Slop, be sure to add the ground/crushed eggshells or add a calcium supplement.

[lmcpug]

Posted by lmcpug on: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:24 am    
Hi Everyone;

someone was asking about meat grinding?? but I've lost the thread :0
there so many great areas to look at and read.

However, I wanted to give the following information.
I've been grinding and freezing my own meat for some time now. I did a thorough research of meat grinders and if anyone is interested here goes:
There are very few meat grinders on the market that will grind soft bone, such as chicken. Also, it is highly recommended that the meat grinder have a reverse switch and circuit breaker switch, as the meat can at times become stuck in the shoot and if these switches are not built into the meat grinder, it could cause the motor to burn out fairly quickly.
I purchased model SB500 - 1200 watt meat grinder and I luv it. It works very quickly and very efficiently. Mind you, you still have to chop or break the bones of the chicken, in order for it to go through the meat grinder, but all in all I've had very good luck with mine.
The site where I purchased mine is:
www.sillypugs.com (not a pug in sight  
The grinder was approx 179.95 + S&H and came to under $200.00 including an extra blade.

Also, you will need an 11 cubic ft freezer, if you really get into it.
I spend a day on each dish, cutting, chopping, grinding, bagging etc.

I make enough each time for approx. 4 - 6 months worth of meals for 2 puggies / when it was 4 puggies it was about 3 - 4 months of food.

Buy on sale whenever possible and always do the chicken fresh and freeze as fast as possible to inhibit contamination. I buy veggies on sale and keep in the freezer till we are ready to do up batches, especially with summer coming, veggies are a bit lower at this time of year and I buy local as much as possible too.

Hope this is helpfull to anyone wanting to do their own.
I was going to add the picture of the grinder, but unfortunately I can't seem to upload it properly  

Good luck and happy foraging!

p.s. thanks for the tripe idea, it is a pretty yucky looking thing but I'm sure the boys will luv it  they do like their other "organ" treats!
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I just found it easier to do the make aheads when chicken was on sale.
Especially feeding four hungry, always starving, won't shut up till I'm fed  puggies!  :0
Plus it's definitely a saving on gas, at the price it is now.

If I'm feeling ambitious (and I agree there times when I'm not and generally have to book a day to do all this chopping, grinding and bagging);
I pick up chicken every time it comes up for 99 cents/lb. and go at it.
I date each batch so I know to use up the older batch first. Cause we all know what freezers are like, LOL, they do not stay organized and eventually everything is upside down.  
Veggies I don't worry too much about cause there is always a variety at a good deal.

P.S. don't forget the extra blade; I swap the blades and it makes them last that much longer. I've had mine now for over 5 years and the original blades are going great; still however, I'm sure I'm due for new ones and
I haven't found compatible ones here in Canada yet.

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 Posted by luvmypug on: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:01 am    
Thanks Imcpug, for posting the info on meat grinders. I emailed Sillypugs to get more info. I'm definitely getting one. I did a couple of searches on line a few days ago & found zip so this is awesome.

I live in a small rural area with nowhere near to get ground chicken bones, I was driving 2 hours one way to buy it.  Now I can do my own. I'm sure I'll save a bunch of $ too.

I think I'm going to really enjoy this raw feeding after I gain a bit more confident in what I'm doing.
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Posted by pugpillow on: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:08 am    
This was very timely and I was all set to order the grinder, but then I did the following math:

Chickens are only infrequently on sale for $1/lb and then there's the cost of the grinder to amortize.

I buy ground chicken bones for $.50/lb and then there's the cost of gas to go and get it, 2 hours each way.
I think I'm still better off going and getting it in bulk.
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Posted by luvmypug on: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:31 am    
I'm going for the grinder. I paid $55 for 40 lbs of ground chicken bones, that's $1.37 a pound. 200 kms each way costs me about $60 per trip. So 3 1/2 trips would pay for my grinder. Than I can make homemade sausage and stuff too. And I'm kind of a hands on person so I'm looking forward to grinding my own meat. This way I also know exactly what my fur babies are having.
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Posted by luvmypug on: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:32 am    
Martha Stewart of the north  

If you ever met me you'd think different. I just love doing stuff for my furkids.

I just ordered the grinder, 5-10 sleeps and it should be here.

I fed chicken necks the other day & it went well. I held on to them so they'd chew them, sure a lot of bone crushing going on, I was starting to fear for my fingers.  

Last night was meaty beef neck bones. I'm not so sure about them, wasn't sure if there was enough meat on them so I gave them chicken breast when I took the bones away. And Dharma was crushing part of the bone. I thought beef bones were to hard to crush & eat.

And yes I did take the bones from them cause I was unsure. Mya was not a happy camper. For such a sweet lovable pug she has one scary growl  I had to use the broom to get the bone from her, noway was I putting my hand anywhere near her. My neighbors must wonder about me some times!

So tonight is chicken. I have a whole freezer burnt one defrosting in the sink. Should I 1/4 it and give them each a piece of that, bones & all? (For the fun of it I would love to give them each a whole one and watch them go nuts, that would be a riot. But I wont.)
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Posted by lmcpug on: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:50 am    
LMAO! They do indeed have a scary growl.
Try 4 fur butts, eating beef marrow bones and keeping them at least 5 feet of personal chewing space apart  (ahem, for jealousy sake)
Those were the good 'ol days.
Now I'm down to 2 and they are pushovers, the girls were the growlers  
When this happened and I would give them a firm "NO"; they usually backed off, not sure if they thought my growl was worse than theirs ?!?! but I'm sure given an inch they would have grabbed the bone and run for the hills  

Congrats on the grinder, I'm very sure you are going to be impressed with it!
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Posted by luvmypug on: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:59 pm    
WooHoo I used my grinder today  

My room-mate bought 12lbs of chicken quarters today when she saw them for .99/lb. I took 2 chickens out of the freezer & ground it all up & made my first batch of breakfast slop. Ended up with breakfast for 2, for 40 days  About 20lbs all together.

I was going to use my food processor for the fruit & veggies, but just put them all through the grinder too, less stuff to clean up.

Not sure what the consistency of this should be when it's all mixed up, but it wouldn't hold its shape like a meatball. Is that how its supposed to be?  

A big thumbs up for the grinder, it totally surprised me how easily it did the bones.

I will let others advise you on the chicken division. Myself,
I would clean the skin off, if it is freezer burnt and depending on the size of this bird, usually, my preference in amts are about the size of a woman's hand, again I will defer to those who do this on a daily basis.

So have fun and enjoy the new toy when it arrives.
I'm pretty sure this company sent it over as a "gift" package; if I remember correctly, I do not remember paying duty at any rate.
Keep me posted!