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Author Topic: Kidney issues and the Senior pug  (Read 1143 times)
lizzthrasher
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« on: February 04, 2010, 10:56:04 AM »

Beau had a blood panel done prior to his dental.

The results are in, and it looks like his kidneys may be starting to fail.

I need info from anyone who may have dealt with these issues before.

Test results:

Urea 12.6 -- normal range 3.0-10.0 mmol/litre

Sodium 142 -- normal range 143-155 mmol/litre

Chloride 104 -- normal range 107-3.00 mmol/litre

Calcium 2.14 -- normal range 2.20 -3.00 mmol/litre.

However, his total protein is normal 61 -- normal range 54-75 g/l

And so is his phosphorus 1.1 -- normal range 0.8-2.2 mmol/litre.

The test were taken about three hours after a meal, and while he was on low dose Maxitrol. (neomycin sulfate - dexamethasone - polymyxin B sulfate)


So my question is, since these values are off by such tiny amounts, would you even worry?

Or do i start in on the Epakitin and low protein, which I see different opinions on all over the web.

And as far as renal failure symptoms go, he is absolutely symptom free.  Full of beans, doesn't drink to much or pee too much, his pee looks normal and he would eat a horse if it was properly prepared.

What's an anxiety filled mom to do?








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DarwinandAdasmom
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 11:35:34 AM »

I showed your post to my Dad since he has experience in kidney problems - with humans and with animals.  His advice:

The levels are off only a tiny bit so first he suggested having the tests redone just to double check, they weren't looking for kidney problems before so they may have different prep for you to do with him before a retest.  If they are still off he would recommend talking to your vet about doing as much preventative care as you can since it can help stave off the inevitable and buy you quite a bit of time.  He said he would look at kidney meds and low protein diets since they aren't too expensive and the less stress or strain Beau's kidneys have to go through from this point can only be helpful.  He also said that symptoms of kidney distress don't tend to show up until there is more of a problem so really early detection like this is a good thing so to try and stay positive.

I hope that helps,  I know that there are many people with pug specific kidney experience so hopefully they will chime in.

Hugs coming your way!
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 04:08:43 PM »

I'd re-test as well given that they are only marginally off.  And I'd ask the vet if there is a particular protocol for testing kidney values--fasting or testing so many hours after eating, etc.

It's not uncommon for kidney and liver values to be inexplicably off in senior dogs and I would also wonder if there is a correlation between the dental and the values. 

Worth keeping an eye on, but I'd want two tests confirming wacky values before doing anything significant.

How much do you like and trust your vet?  That makes a huge difference in my mind.....
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lizzthrasher
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 04:55:27 PM »

I actually like my vet and trust him quite a bit.

At his point, I'm really inclined to let him finish out his meds (post dental), wait until April or so, and re-test fasting or what ever.

I don't really feel we need to worry (from what I've read) until we get an elevated phosphorus.

His poor little body has been through so much (corneal ulcer, drippy weenie), I really wonder if its just a stress thing or possible UTI thing.

And coursem, all Google does is scare the pants off ya.
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DarwinandAdasmom
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 05:14:16 PM »

Oh man, when it comes to medical stuff Google is the devil.  It is a sure fire way to massively freak yourself out.
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 05:40:34 PM »

I'm a hemodialysis nurse so I know a bit about the subject in humans.
Renal failure in humans can be asymptomatic until you are down to about 20% of your kidney function.  The kidneys are one of the most efficient organs in the human body. 

If we saw levels like that in a human we would retest in a couple of months (probably in 3 months unless they had symptoms).

How old is beau?  In both renal and liver functions (in humans) it is not uncommon to see slightly off (or even sometimes more significantly off) levels depending on what you ate or drank recently. 

I have to agree with the advice of others here and not make any changes until you have retested Beau.......but I am not a vet, and their recommendation is much more valuable than mine!

Keep us posted.  Sending good thoughts your way that this was just a little blip!
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 09:43:47 PM »

Retest, then see.  Sorry to hear this, hope the retest goes well, maybe do it sooner than later, if you're just gonna worry until then.
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lizzthrasher
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 12:39:00 PM »

Well, the family consensus is to err on the side of caution.

No monumental changes in diet, and wait and retest when he has his blood draes for heartworm anyways.

But you can bet I'll be watching..... Smiley


And thanks for the support! Smiley

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blanche
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 02:26:51 PM »

LOL.  I hear you, Lizz.  I'm the same way.  Tank inexplicably tested as anemic for months and months and then poof--suddenly wasn't any longer.  He still has way higher than normal platelet count that we can't explain.  Drives me crazy--I'm have a low tolerance for ambiguity.  But he's not sick or showing any signs of things that would account for the high platelet count.

And I wasn't slagging your vet, by the way.  But I know that I trust one of my vets more than the other.  Not that the other is an idiot, but I have a longer relationship with one and just trust her more.
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lizzthrasher
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 02:34:43 PM »

I'd be more concerned if I saw elevated phosphorus or protein, or changes in his urine, but he is totally asymptomatic.

And its just not that out of whack.

 
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blanche
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 03:05:18 PM »

Yep--reading the values can be tricky--as some values in and of themselves aren't a big deal until other values are also out of whack--Like protein and phosphorous.  Urea and creatinine.

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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2010, 10:42:50 PM »

WOW!  sorry to have missed this.

Liz,
do you feed raw?? or kibble diet??

I had to do blood tests last year on Pugsley and they came back to me saying he was having
adrenal problems too.
I questioned Hilary and was advised that if there is a raw diet involved the meat can elevate certain levels.
So I went back to my Vet (not my Vet of choice) and said that the levels may be off due to the boys diet.
She was surprised but looked into and on the nexy visit agreed it could be diet related.

Hmmmm, Pugsley has no symptoms i.e sucking back water, weak colored urine etc. and is still kicking up
his heels, as much as is possible Smiley

They then tried that same argument again, last fall and freaked me right out Wink Got me while I was tired and my imaginatin went wild...... $200.00 later and a free bag of useless kibble  Roll Eyes  The vet agreed he had a rotten tooth..............     OYYYYYYY!!!!!   Roll Eyes

Anyways was just wondering!

Lori Smiley
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lizzthrasher
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 09:24:34 AM »

Beau is in the pink!

For an old fart he's pretty active.  ( the giant leaps in to the chairs are awesome !) 

And he remains symptom free.

We feed grain free duck and potato kibble.

I might have him re-tested in when we do the heartworm screening.

But I really think he was likely slightly dehydrated, and that the cortisone threw off the test results.
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lmcpug
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 07:12:57 PM »

Awww,
so glad Beau is doing well Smiley Smiley

I just wanted to check about the food because not everyone would know that little factor.
Thank goodness for our "fountain of useful information"  Wink  Hilary.
Cause I was freaking, I knew Pugsley was healthy and he wasn't showing any of the symptoms, but heck,
these Vets can be pretty darn good at scaring someone to heck!!!

Anyhoooo,  glad that Beau can still jump on the couch Smiley  Pugsley just gets "stuck" Wink on the floor these days!

Lori Smiley
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Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one that inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it. Mark Twain, "The Lowest Animal" Lovingly remembered Pugsley, Honey and ShyShy at the Bridge
dvm2012
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 08:13:39 PM »

Glad Beau is still doing well!  I never saw this post before but I think I can write a little spiel on renal function now as I've just learned it in school. 

The values for Beau don't seem to be TOO too off.  We also look at how the dog is doing clinically.  It never hurts to screen him every so often. 

With renal function, we look at two very important parameters.  These two parameters are:
BUN - blood urea nitrogen and creatinine.  In our body (and our pugs), we have something called the urea cycle.  Our liver produces urea as a a waste product from digestion of proteins in our body.  Creatinine is a breakdown product of creatinine-phosphate in muscle.  Again, our body filters out creatinine through the kidneys. 

When our kidneys don't work properly, there is that extra BUN and creatinine that just can't get filtered out so when we take blood from our dogs, we see that excess.  An increased BUN & creatinine is known as azotemia

Azotemia is a pretty good sign of renal failure and there are THREE categories
1) Pre-renal - this is usually due to something like dehydration
2) Renal - something is happening WITHIN the kidneys
3) Post-renal - something is happening AFTER the kidneys - so this can be at the level of the urinary tract (ie: urinary obstruction)

When we look at something like chronic kidney disease (aka CKD), we usually see azotemia, a low USG (urine specific gravity), and we also see clinical signs.  Usually when we see azotemia in a biochemistry profile (the blood test your vet probably did), we move onto other other things immediately.

The first thing we do is collect a urine sample to see if the kidneys are working properly.  What we DON'T want is something called an "isosthenuria".  Kidneys are smart and when we are dehydrated, they really try to retain as much water in the body as they can and our urine comes out very concentrated.  If we drink a lot of water, our urine is a lot more dilute.  For animals that are dehydrated but have a urine specific gravity of between 1.008 - 1.0012, we call that isosthenuria.  This means that they kidneys aren't able to concentrate the urine. 

Another thing we want to do is a UPC (urine protein/creatinine ratio) to see how bad the kidney disease is.  A high UPC means that there is more protein in the urine, which is a risk factor that promotes to progression of CKD.  Other tests with urine that we'd like to do is a urine culture to make sure there's no bacteria and an underlying pyelonephritis. 

Higher levels of diagnostics are available such as radiographs/x-rays or ultrasound.  These can show us the size of the kidneys, any irregularities, stones, obstruction, etc. 

Hopefully, this clears up some stuff about the kidneys.  Again, with an older dog, it never hurts to screen ever 6 months to 1 year to see how your dog is doing.  However, clinical signs are also very important so if you notice any change in behaviour, it's always important to take them to your local veterinarian right away.  It is definitely hard as an owner to know what's "too high" and what's "too low" but the veterinarian (after many hours and hours of renal lectures - not complaining here...Wink ) are usually pretty good at handling these kidney cases or referring them to specialists who solely focus on urology/nephrology stuff (ie: the prof I worked for this year).  As an owner though, it is awesome you are so proactive about these situations. 

Hope Beau continues to do well - he seems like a very sweet dog! 
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